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How the 16/0/35 build works
Ours: the sim has no Subtlety build, so this one is built from the beta tooltips. It goes to Thousand Cuts, Forever's new 31-point talent, which makes Rupture ticks cheapen your next Hemorrhage or Backstab. Hemorrhage, Serrated Blades, Preparation, Premeditation and Ghostly Strike come on the way.
Forever adds Cutthroat (Backstab can let your next Ambush work outside Stealth) and Quietus (more damage below 35% health); Cutthroat is maxed and Quietus takes four of five. Sixteen Assassination points take Malice, Ruthlessness and Lethality.
Leveling a Subtlety Rogue
We don't give Subtlety its own leveling route: most players level as another Rogue spec and switch at 60. Level with one of these, one talent point a level from 10, then respec into the build above:
Every talent in the Subtlety Rogue build
Each talent with its Forever tooltip at the rank the build takes.
Assassination· 16 points
Malice 5/5
Increases your critical strike chance with all attacks and Poisons by 5%.
Ruthlessness 3/3
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a Combo Point to your target.
Improved Slice and Dice 2/3
Increases the duration of your Slice and Dice ability by 30%.
Relentless Strikes 1/1
Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per Combo Point to restore 25 Energy.
Lethality 5/5
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Mutilate, Ghostly Strike, and Hemorrhage abilities by 20%.
Subtlety· 35 points
Camouflage 3/5
Reduces your speed penalty from your Stealth ability by 9% and reduces its cooldown by 4 sec.
Opportunity 2/2
Increases the damage dealt by your Backstab, Garrote, Ambush, and Mutilate abilities by 10%.
Elusiveness 2/2
Reduces the cooldown of your Vanish and Blind abilities by 90 sec.
Improved Ambush 3/3
Increases the critical strike chance of your Ambush ability by 45%.
Initiative 3/3
Gives you a 100% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.
Ghostly Strike 1/1
A strike that deals 125% (180% if a Dagger is equipped in your Main Hand) weapon damage and increases your chance to dodge by 15% for 7 sec. Awards 1 combo point.
Improved Distract 1/2New in Forever
Increases the radius of your Distract ability by 3 yds, and further reduces the Stealth detection of distracted enemies as though they were an additional 1 level lower.
Heightened Senses 2/2
Increases your Stealth detection as if you were 3 levels higher and reduces your chance to be hit by spells and ranged attacks by 4%.
Premeditation 1/1
Adds 2 Combo Points to your target. You must add to or use those combo points within 20 sec or the combo points are lost.
Serrated Blades 3/3
Causes your attacks to ignore 9% of your target's Armor and increases the damage dealt by your Rupture ability by 30%.
Dirty Deeds 2/2
Reduces the Energy cost of your Cheap Shot and Garrote abilities by 20, and your Garrote ability no longer requires you to be behind your target.
Preparation 1/1
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.
Hemorrhage 1/1
An instant strike that deals 100% weapon damage (145% if a Dagger is equipped) and causes the target to take 15% increased Rupture damage from the Rogue. Lasts 15 sec. Awards 1 Combo Point.
Quietus 4/5New in Forever
Your Sinister Strike, Ghostly Strike, and Hemorrhage abilities cause 8% more damage against targets below 35% health.
Cutthroat 5/5New in Forever
Your Backstab has a 15% chance to cause your next Ambush within 10 sec to not require Stealth.
Thousand Cuts 1/1New in Forever
When your Rupture ability deals periodic damage, the Energy cost of your next Hemorrhage or Backstab ability within 10 sec is reduced by 3, stacking up to 5 times.
New Subtlety talents in WoW Forever
The 5 talents in Forever's Subtlety tree that Classic does not have, shown at full rank. Another 12 carry over from Classic with different ranks, positions or numbers.
Dirty Tricks · row 2, 2 ranks
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sap and Blind abilities by 50%.
Improved Distract · row 3, 2 ranks
Increases the radius of your Distract ability by 5 yds, and further reduces the Stealth detection of distracted enemies as though they were an additional 2 levels lower.
Quietus · row 6, 5 ranks
Your Sinister Strike, Ghostly Strike, and Hemorrhage abilities cause 10% more damage against targets below 35% health.
Cutthroat · row 6, 5 ranks
Your Backstab has a 15% chance to cause your next Ambush within 10 sec to not require Stealth.
Thousand Cuts · row 7, 1 rank
When your Rupture ability deals periodic damage, the Energy cost of your next Hemorrhage or Backstab ability within 10 sec is reduced by 3, stacking up to 5 times.
Questions
What are the best Sub Rogue talents in WoW Forever?
Our recommended Subtlety Rogue build is 16/0/35: Subtlety to Thousand Cuts, Lethality from Assassination. We built it from the beta's tooltips because the Forever sim has no build for it yet. Nobody has played a level 60 yet, so treat it as a starting point until launch on 4 November.
Are WoW Forever's Subtlety talents the same as Classic's?
No. Forever's Subtlety tree has 19 talents, and 5 of them do not exist in Classic: Dirty Tricks, Improved Distract, Quietus, Cutthroat and Thousand Cuts. Another 12 have different ranks, positions or numbers. The tree is still seven rows deep, and each row still needs five points spent above it.
What is the Subtlety 31-point talent in WoW Forever?
Thousand Cuts, which is new in Forever. When your Rupture ability deals periodic damage, the Energy cost of your next Hemorrhage or Backstab ability within 10 sec is reduced by 3, stacking up to 5 times.
How should I level a Subtlety Rogue in WoW Forever?
Level as Assassination Rogue or Combat Rogue, then respec to Subtlety at 60. Few players level as Subtlety, so we give the leveling routes on those pages: one talent point a level from 10, with no respec on the way.
How many talent points do you get in WoW Forever?
51 at level 60, one per level from level 10, as in Classic. The Legacy perk Talented starts them at level 5 instead, which matters for alts while levelling.
Where does this talent data come from?
From the WoW Forever beta client's own talent tables (build 1.60.1.70338), not from Classic. Every tooltip on this page is rendered from the client's spell data, and we checked them against the numbers the beta's own tooltips show. The trees can still change before launch.
